When Cybersecurity Becomes Pay to Play
Awards you have to pay to win, events you have to pay to attend and conferences that expect speakers to work for free. When did recognition and expertise in cybersecurity become something you have to buy?
Welcome to Razorwire, the podcast where we share our take on the world of cybersecurity with direct, practical advice for professionals and business owners alike. I'm Jim and in this episode I'm joined by security consultant and regular community speaker James Bore and Gary Hibberd, co-founder of Consultants Like Us and the Real Cyber Awards and Conference.
Pay to play takes many forms in cybersecurity, from awards that come with entry fees and expensive tickets to events charging vendors thousands for access to decision makers. At the same time, large commercial conferences can expect experienced speakers to give up days of preparation, travel at their own expense and appear on stage in return for little more than exposure.
Jim, James and Gary look at where legitimate commercial arrangements end and questionable practices begin. They discuss what gives an award credibility, when paying for access to an event can be worthwhile and why the way cybersecurity treats its speakers could ultimately affect the quality of the events themselves.
Three key talking points
When recognition comes with a price tag
Not every paid award works the same way. From outright offers to buy recognition to free entries followed by expensive ceremony tickets, we look at the different forms pay to play can take and why credibility depends on what happens behind the award.
Should cybersecurity speakers be paid?
Community events and large commercial conferences operate very differently. We discuss when speaking for free makes sense and why expectations should change when an event is making significant money from exhibitors and attendees.
Good speaking takes work
A short conference talk can take days of preparation. James and Gary get into the work behind becoming a strong speaker, why experience and preparation matter and what happens when events prioritise sponsored slots over good content.
If you're deciding which awards and events deserve your time, or building a reputation as a cybersecurity speaker, this conversation is for you.
On what makes an award mean something:
"It's lovely to win an award, but you win it based on merit. You don't win it because you paid for it."
James Rees
Listen to this episode on your favourite podcasting platform: https://razorwire.captivate.fm/listen
In this episode, we covered the following topics:
The Pay to Play Awards Industry
Find out how paid recognition can range from blatant offers to buy an award to less obvious costs that only appear once you've been shortlisted.
What Makes an Award Credible?
An impressive trophy does not necessarily mean much. We discuss judging, verification and why the process behind an award determines whether the recognition carries any weight.
Paying for Access to Decision Makers
Vendors can spend significant sums for a seat in the room with CISOs and other senior buyers. Discover why some of these events deliver useful conversations while others fall far short of what was promised.
The Real Cost of Speaking for Free
Speaking is rarely just the time spent on stage. We get into preparation, travel and accommodation and why the economics look very different for community events and commercial conferences.
Community Events vs Commercial Conferences
James regularly speaks at community events without charging. Explore why contributing to an event built around the community is different from providing free content to a profitable conference.
The Problem With 'Exposure'
Exposure can be valuable early in a speaking career, but it has limits. We discuss why established speakers are increasingly willing to turn down events that expect expertise for nothing.
Why Conference Content Suffers
When experienced speakers walk away and sponsored slots fill the gaps, audiences notice. Find out how decisions about speaker budgets can affect the quality and value of an event.
Learning to Become a Better Speaker
Public speaking is a skill rather than something that simply happens when someone walks onto a stage. James and Gary discuss preparation, practice and learning the craft.
Knowing When to Say No
Not every award, event or speaking opportunity deserves your time. We explore why knowing what you want from an opportunity matters before agreeing to take part.
Resources Mentioned
The Real Cyber Awards and Conference
Connect with your host James Rees
Hello, I am James Rees, the host of the Razorwire podcast. This podcast brings you insights from leading cyber security professionals who dedicate their careers to making a hacker’s life that much more difficult.
Our guests bring you experience and expertise from a range of disciplines and from different career stages. We give you various viewpoints for improving your cyber security – from seasoned professionals with years of experience, triumphs and lessons learned under their belt, to those in relatively early stages of their careers offering fresh eyes and new insights.
With new episodes every other Wednesday, Razorwire is a podcast for cyber security enthusiasts and professionals providing insights, news and fresh ideas on protecting your organisation from hackers.
For more information about us or if you have any questions you would like us to discuss email podcast@razorthorn.com.
If you need consultation, visit www.razorthorn.com, We give our clients a personalised, integrated approach to information security, driven by our belief in quality and discretion.
LinkedIn: Razorthorn Security
YouTube: Razorthorn Security
TikTok: Razorwire Podcast
Instagram: Razorwire Podcast
Twitter: @RazorThornLTD
All rights reserved. © Razorthorn Security LTD 2025
Transcript
We're talking about pay to play.
Speaker A:We're also talking about the speaker circuit.
Speaker B:If I've got to spend 5 or 600 pounds just to go to sit and hope I might win an award, then I'm pretty much sure I'm paying for it.
Speaker C:In the last week I've had 12 offers which will feature me on the COVID page or get me an award or something or the other, ranging usually between $500 to 1,600.
Speaker A:There's organizational ones as well, whereas, like an organization, you can create your own catego and receive some form of award.
Speaker B:I don't think I've met anyone who will actually hold those kind of awards in any kind of high esteem.
Speaker C:Something to remember is while these awards are pay to play and not worth what you're paying for them, people do buy into them and do believe them.
Speaker C:They don't critically examine the claims.
Speaker B:These event organisers need to invest in their speakers and dare I say it, that we ourselves need to start respecting our boundaries and being willing to say no.
Speaker A:Welcome to the Razer Wire podcast where we discuss all things in the information security and cybersecurity world, from current events and trends through to commentary from experts in the field, providing vital advisory on what it is to work in the information, security and cybersecurity space.
Speaker A:We're talking about pay to play.
Speaker A:We're also talking about the speaker circuit, we're talking about what it's like to be in that part of the industry where people want you to talk at their events when they want to appear, dare I say it, on your podcast.
Speaker A:Or do they want you to come and pay in order to win an award?
Speaker A:It does happen.
Speaker A:So in order to talk about this, I have brought in two people, two fantastic people who have experienced all the horrors within this particular space and we're going to sit and talk about it.
Speaker A:Today I have James Bohr and Gary Hibbert.
Speaker A:James, would you like to introduce yourself?
Speaker A:If they haven't seen you already on the podcast, yeah.
Speaker C:James Bohr.
Speaker C:I'm a security consultant and I do security related stuff.
Speaker C:There you go.
Speaker C:Introduction done.
Speaker A:Fantastic.
Speaker B:And Gary, I can't make it as short as that.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So Gary, co founder of consultants like us and we do security stuff, data protection stuff, privacy stuff, AI stuff.
Speaker B:But doesn't everyone?
Speaker B:And I think particularly pertinent to today is I'm the co founder of the Real Cyber Awards and conference as well, which is held in the north of England.
Speaker A:Fantastic.
Speaker A:And I think everybody knows who I am, or I'm just Immaterial compared to the both of you.
Speaker A:So which one should we hit first?
Speaker A:What do you want to start with?
Speaker A:Should we start with the speakers?
Speaker A:Should we start with the Pay to Play?
Speaker B:I'll throw it straight out the Pay to Play piece.
Speaker B:I think let's, let's all be honest and say, and this is a message to those people who are running the Pay to Play.
Speaker B:To be clear, that simply means enter these awards and you're going to pay some, some money to, to be at these awards or to, to win an award.
Speaker B:So you'll see it, you'll come through, it'll come through LinkedIn sometimes, sometimes into your inbox and it'll be a case of hey, James, we've identified you as a top influencer in this particular space.
Speaker B: If you pay us $: Speaker B:Etc.
Speaker B:That's a Pay to Play award.
Speaker B:And I don't think I've met anyone who will actually hold those kind of awards in any kind of high esteem in any stretch of the imagination.
Speaker B:So I don't understand.
Speaker B:They must, someone must be buying them because otherwise people wouldn't exist and these businesses wouldn't exist.
Speaker B:But I think there is another Pay to Play as well which isn't talked about enough, which is where you, it's free to enter the awards.
Speaker B:But then when you say oh, you know, congratulations, you've been shortlisted to go to these awards, suddenly it's like five or six hundred pounds to actually just go and sit and have a, have a three course meal and a glass of something vaguely resembling something bubbly and, and fizzy.
Speaker B:And that's the other lesser known Pay to Play.
Speaker B:But as a Yorkshireman, if I've got to spend 5 or 600 pound just to go to sit and hope I might win an award, then I'm pretty much sure I'm paying for it.
Speaker A:So basically in one of these scenarios they're being very open about what you're going to get and how much it's going to cost.
Speaker A:And then in the other scenario it's kind of a bait you in and then give you the bad news down the line when you have that hope that you might actually win it.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And they're the ones that, it always makes me laugh when they go, you know, congratulations, you've been shortlisted for this award and it's 500 pound if you want to come along to the awards.
Speaker B:And then you go, okay, do you Know what?
Speaker B:I've been shortlisted.
Speaker B:I'll go along.
Speaker B:And then you turn up at the awards and actually, the short list is these are probably about 15 other people in that category that you've been shortlisted for.
Speaker B:Now, I don't know about you, but I.
Speaker B:Last time I watched the Olympics, the shortlist is usually three.
Speaker B:It's bronze, silver and gold.
Speaker B:They don't have all 15 runners in that shortlist.
Speaker B:It's kind of, you know, you've been shortlisted, it's the top three.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:But if you're sat there and you look at the.
Speaker B:That award board and there's 15 other people that's been shortlisted, you can bet your bottom dollar that each one of those is paid 500, 600 pounds to be there.
Speaker A:James, you look like you are about to interject there.
Speaker C:Yeah, I wouldn't divide them so neatly.
Speaker C:I've seen the ones where it's the application fee to just be an entrant to the award.
Speaker C:Then that ticks up.
Speaker C:There's a publicity package that you can get which will include a trophy for your award.
Speaker C:Usually that's extra you pay for.
Speaker C:There's some where you don't actually have to buy the meal, but you have to buy.
Speaker C:So there's a whole range of these things.
Speaker C:And there's also sticking on the pay to play side.
Speaker C:There's ones where they'll come to someone who's a speaker and say, hey, we're putting on an event.
Speaker C:Will you pay to speak at our event?
Speaker C:There's a whole collection of Pay to play nightmares.
Speaker B:It's a whole industry.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:I mean, you're absolutely right, James.
Speaker B:Actually, I sort of neatly put people down into two categories.
Speaker B:But you're right, there are the ones where they'll say, to enter these awards, it's going to cost you this amount of money.
Speaker B:Almost like, certainly when I was younger, they used to have these writing competitions where you would say, like, submit your, you know, an essay or a book or your short story and pay £25 to be.
Speaker B:Be a part of it sort of thing, because the judging process is.
Speaker B:Is extensive and we have to pay our judges.
Speaker B:But you're right, it's an.
Speaker B:It's an entire industry.
Speaker B:Certainly not within my circle.
Speaker B:I don't know anyone who pays to play.
Speaker B:I think most people are tired of that approach and are gravitating towards awards and events where they're not having to pay to play.
Speaker C: to: Speaker C:CIO of the year.
Speaker C:Apparently, I'm CIO of the year, most influential cyber cyber security person in some magazine I've never heard of, so long as I pay the money.
Speaker B:I clearly, I'm not as influential as you, James, because I've had a few of those, not quite as many as you, but I, I do often go into conversation with these people just to say, look, you know, thanks ever so much, you know, but it's not for me.
Speaker B:But the moment you do that, it's like, well, would you like to tell me why?
Speaker B:It's like, yeah.
Speaker C:Oh, I've never heard until I can tell you how to get rid of them, it's really easy.
Speaker C:Turn around and say, actually, my price for doing an interview is double or triple.
Speaker C:Whatever they've said, I'm more than happy to feature.
Speaker C:Do you want me to send you an invoice?
Speaker C:They go quiet, yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:And I genuinely did do that.
Speaker B:I did go back and say, you know, with the greatest of respect, normally I'm paid to provide comments on a certain topic or whatever, but I'm always very polite about it.
Speaker B:And I just like to go back and just say, look, this is my stance on the situation, but I think if I got as many as you, maybe, James, I probably would be a little bit more blunt.
Speaker A:Well, it's not just for, like, people either, is it?
Speaker A:There's organizational ones as well, whereas, like an organization, you can almost create your own category and receive some form of award.
Speaker A:And I've been along and I'm not going to say who or.
Speaker A:Well, because there's quite a few companies where you go along to do your business, you know, to do your meeting.
Speaker A:You turn up and they've got a case, a nice glass case with like 15 different awards you've never heard of on the cheapest possible plastic plaques.
Speaker A:And they're usually like a shard of glass or like a shard of crystal with, like, it all engraved.
Speaker A:And I've, we've, we've had people come contacting us saying, you know, would you like to win an award?
Speaker A:It's like, yeah, of course I'd love to win an award.
Speaker A:You know, what are you talking about?
Speaker A:Oh, pay this amount of money and we'll just put you in whatever category you want.
Speaker C:Years ago now, I knocked together a FAPE certificate, which was either best dressed or best shirts in Cyber security stuck it up on LinkedIn and did it as an April Fool's.
Speaker C:But the number of congratulations I've got.
Speaker C:So something to remember is while these awards are pay to play and not worth what you're paying for them, people do buy into them and do believe them.
Speaker C:They don't critically examine the claims.
Speaker C:If I can get over 100 congratulations for a Canva certificate for best shirts in cybersecurity, then someone having that case with that plaque that is buying approval from customers who don't know better.
Speaker B:It is.
Speaker B:And, but, and I think that there's a number of things that are at play there.
Speaker B:You know, people's attention spans, you know, are limited and such and people want to congratulate people and there are funny awards out there.
Speaker B:I remember many, many, many years ago at a business continuity awards, one of the categories was Best pub near a doctor.
Speaker B:Do you know what I mean?
Speaker B:So there are, there have been, you know, good, good things like that.
Speaker B:And I mean, obviously now I know this is going to sound very self serving but of course I am going to talk about the real Cyber Awards and the reason why Lee and myself started it.
Speaker B:And it is because we were tired of going to awards which we were invited to and we'd been shortlisted for and we'd go along to these awards and we'd pay the five or six hundred pounds for the, the seat and then you pay three hundred pound in trains and then your hotels and all the rest of it.
Speaker B:And we just felt it was just all very lackluster.
Speaker B:It didn't have much sparkle or energy to, to these awards that we were going to.
Speaker B:So we just went, you know what, we're not just going to sit here and throw rocks at a particular industry if we don't think it's been done right, let's, let's us give it a go.
Speaker B:Let's see how easy this is or how difficult it is and what the challenges are.
Speaker B:So we started the real Cyber Awards born out of that frustration.
Speaker B:And for our awards, it's free to enter.
Speaker B:If you are shortlisted, you get two free tickets.
Speaker B:And I'm really pleased to see some of the rewards now have started to say you get a free ticket if you're shortlisted, but we give you two free tickets because no one likes to go to a party on their own.
Speaker B:These awards are meant, are judged by a small group of people who understand the industry.
Speaker B:There's a real judging process to it.
Speaker B:Claims will be validated.
Speaker B:So we're not just going to accept marketing blurb you know, copying and pasting your details from your website into your entry just won't cut it because if it says, you know, 10,000 customers can't be wrong, well, we're going to find out if you really do have 10,000 customers.
Speaker B:These awards, our real cyber awards, are meant to have some real integrity, real heart to it with a real process and again, it just put that reality back into it.
Speaker B:So I know it sounds very self serving, but I just wanted to be clear.
Speaker B:There are some awards out there, ourselves included, and there are others, not many that I've come across, but there are some awards out there that actually do have some merit and have, you know, some worth to them and are respected.
Speaker B:So I'm not here to throw rocks at the whole award thing.
Speaker B:I think awards are good and I think we need to celebrate ourselves a little bit more.
Speaker B:For far too long we've played the, you know, we've eaten humble pie.
Speaker B:I think we need to stop doing that.
Speaker B:We need to own our space and celebrate the work that we do.
Speaker B:So, yeah, that's my two pennies.
Speaker B:I'll put my soapbox away now.
Speaker A:No, I totally agree.
Speaker A:I mean, you know, for a long time now, it is exhausting, you know, but I've also been to, you know, watched awards where it's obviously the mates of whoever is kind of like running the thing or sort of winning the same award over and over again and you, you kind of look at what they do and it's just like they're good but like, can other people kind of actually win some of this?
Speaker A:And it just seems to me there's a good element there of people just trying to stroke their own egos and it has seemingly got a lot worse in the last few years I think because cyber suddenly become, or cyber security or information security, depends how old you are.
Speaker A:I suppose we're seeing a hell of a lot more kind of these dodgy awards out there.
Speaker A:I must admit.
Speaker A:I get tons and tons and tons of people saying, you know, we want to profile you in the cio, worldwide news paper or whatever hell it is.
Speaker A:And I've never heard of these publications.
Speaker B:No, that is because you're an influencer now.
Speaker B:You're a true, you're, you know, you're, you're down with the cool kids.
Speaker B:You must, you must be on Tick Tock doing dances or something, right?
Speaker B:Because you're, you're.
Speaker A:Well, well, we are on Tick Tock and we do get, weirdly enough, we get a lot of views on there as well, which I find kind of weird because I'm not from the tick tock generation, but just sort of becoming reasonably successful in that space.
Speaker A:It opens up the door for this kind of thing.
Speaker A:I mean, you know, my poor marketing director, she spends most of her time trying to figure out what's real and what isn't.
Speaker A:That comes into the inbox, you know, because, yeah, it's lovely to win an award, but you win it based on merit.
Speaker A:You don't win it because you paid the most or because you paid for it.
Speaker A:Otherwise what's the point?
Speaker A:It gets worse over in the States.
Speaker A:So I understand.
Speaker A:I was chatting to a guy who said that there's now kind of whole CISO groups that have emerged where vendors have to pay to play, they have to pay to come into the inner circle where they can pitch their products and then they might get a sale of the product.
Speaker A:So it seems to be evolving within even our own community where some people have figured out now that rather than going out and finding a vendor, you can get paid, and I think I heard the price like $200 to just go to one of these sit down CISO events where you can pitch to the CISOs, but it's the CISOs themselves that carve up the money.
Speaker A:There's no like events company at the, at the beginning of it.
Speaker A:So it seems to be evolving in this industry.
Speaker B:But I think that's been around for a long time.
Speaker B:And this takes as the pay to play model away from awards, you know, just, just in the earliest days.
Speaker B:I remember 20 plus years ago being invited to go to a tech conference and it was, I remember the blurb was.
Speaker B:Or the person on the phone was saying to me, gary, you're going to be sitting on a table with 10 decision makers and they are going to be, you're going to get business out of that table and it's only going to cost you £10,000 to sit at that table, but you're guaranteed to make 100,000 pound.
Speaker B:And my response to that was always, I'll tell you what, I will give you 30,000 pound of that 100,000, but I'll pay you after I've got my 100,000.
Speaker B:How's that sound?
Speaker B:And they were like, no, no, no, no, no, we need your 10,000 pound first.
Speaker B:And I said, but you just said to me, it's guaranteed that I'm guaranteed to get 100,000.
Speaker B:So you're turning down £20,000 because I'm going to give you £30,000 after I've made my Hundred.
Speaker B:And I'll walk away with them and say, you have 30.
Speaker B:Everyone's a winner.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And they were like, no, no, no, no, you have to pay 10,000 pound.
Speaker B:So the pay to play model has been there for.
Speaker B:Well, yeah, the start of info security and then it's just shifted into the awards arena.
Speaker B:I think that's where we've.
Speaker B:We got to now to be at that table where you might win the award.
Speaker B:But James, you've been to the, you've been to our real cyber Awards, right?
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah, we didn't win.
Speaker B:I know, but.
Speaker B:Yeah, but you didn't win.
Speaker B:But did you have a good time.
Speaker C:Apart from the not win?
Speaker C:No, it was a lovely event.
Speaker C:I mean, I'm a judge on a couple of other awards.
Speaker C:Again, ones where it's not pay to enter or pay to play or the other thing is the pay to win.
Speaker C:Even where they're saying, oh, you get a free ticket, but you have to get a table to.
Speaker C:Or you have to be at the event to get your award.
Speaker C:So I don't associate with any of them, but there are quite a few out there which do do either completely free.
Speaker C:The Unsung heroes, for example.
Speaker C:That's a small award ceremony that's very direct.
Speaker C:Completely free, completely open, all done through sponsorship.
Speaker C:The ospers are a larger one there.
Speaker C:Again, the cyber ospers.
Speaker C:Free to enter, free to win.
Speaker C:I believe you do have to pay for meals, but that's it.
Speaker C:Yeah, but you don't have to pay for the meal to win the award.
Speaker C:You know, there is a choice there.
Speaker C:I think there's a whole list of problems, though, because one thing is we're talking about this like it's new and it's not new at all.
Speaker C:This has been going on for decades, centuries.
Speaker C:The same problem.
Speaker C:It's a very established model.
Speaker C:It's just infecting cyber now a lot more and spreading rapidly because here's where the money is at the moment.
Speaker A:And then it'll be the next one down the line.
Speaker A:I mean, A.I.
Speaker C:Absolutely.
Speaker C:How many AI awards are there out there?
Speaker C:I reckon within a year there'll be double the number of AI awards as cyber ones, and they'll all be written by AI and entered by AI.
Speaker C:We can take the humans out of it and just go off and do something human and important, which will be nice.
Speaker A:It'll be AIs giving other AIs awards to stroke egos.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's nice to hear that there are real awards out there, you know, because it is oppressive and.
Speaker A:And, yeah, I, I get the whole, you know, come along and we can put you in front of like all the main CISOs, you know, and CIOs for these various different industries.
Speaker A:Just out of interest, have any of you ever actually gone to one to see whether or not you actually get in front of these people or has it just been a rejection?
Speaker C:I've, I've been a moderator and a host for them.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Oh, give us a, give us the intel.
Speaker A:Is it, is it real or is it a case you turn up and you find that none of these CIOs have bothered to get out of bed?
Speaker C:So the ones I've gone to the.
Speaker C:Yeah, people have got out of bed.
Speaker C:There's actually depending on the organizer, so that's an important thing.
Speaker C:Some organizers are very transparent about it.
Speaker C:They don't guarantee the business, they don't promise anything beyond.
Speaker C:You can talk a bit about it and then you can have an open conversation over dinner, which I think that's perfectly reasonable and fair.
Speaker C:Then there's others who promise you the sun, moon and stars and probably Jupiter as well.
Speaker C:I find the ones who over promise tend to be the ones who massively under deliver the ones who are frank and say, look, it comes down to how you converse with them.
Speaker C:Tell us who you want there, we'll extend the invite, we'll try and encourage them.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker C:There's ethical issues, but it's not quite the same.
Speaker C:And they tend to be a very good discussion, which usually when I'm attending it, because I'm attending as a moderator, gets me a free dinner.
Speaker C:I'm happy, I was just going to.
Speaker B:Say, just on that point.
Speaker B:So I've not moderated, I've been.
Speaker B:And I've been at both ends of the scale in terms of I paid quite a lot or the organization I play, I worked with played quite a lot.
Speaker B:I think they paid about six or seven thousand pounds to be in the room, which is, you know, fairly average sponsorship, I guess, for an exhibition, if you, if you're going to do that.
Speaker B:So they paid about five or six thousand pounds.
Speaker B:I went along to that and it was clear that the other CISOs and people in the room weren't really that interested in engaging in conversation.
Speaker B:So it didn't, it felt a little bit stale, fell a bit flat, but.
Speaker B:And yet I've been to other ones where it's not been as much.
Speaker B: and £: Speaker B:So you are paying to be in the room, but you're in the room with some good quality, high net worth individuals in this particular situation.
Speaker B:People who are investing and looking for assistance in various different fields.
Speaker B:So that was worth it.
Speaker B:But a lot less money and expectations weren't hyped up for the, you know, where it was the bigger sell.
Speaker B:The expectation was right, you're going to make oodles of money out of this guy.
Speaker B:You need to be in this room.
Speaker B:We went along and it was like, yeah, we really don't need to be in this room and I don't think anyone wants us in this room.
Speaker B:So yeah, that was the disparity of the difference I guess for me, maybe.
Speaker A:I'm being thick here, which is absolutely possible.
Speaker A:But like if the CISOs are going along or CIOs or whatever the bloody hell the C suite is doing there, if they're uninterested, why are they there?
Speaker A:What incentivize free food?
Speaker A:So basically they're there for the free food and booze.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Why doesn't anybody invite me to one of these things?
Speaker A:Because I'd love to come along and get fed for free.
Speaker A:I mean, I could barely afford to feed my family or release the burden of inflation effects.
Speaker C:I can have a chat with some people I know and see if we can get you an invite to one.
Speaker C:But I think the thing is where you're looking at the ones which aren't over promising and are being realistic.
Speaker C:If you compare it to something like a stand at Infosec, people are paying a fortune.
Speaker C:Have a stand and give away loads of T shirts and talk to people who don't care about them in the least.
Speaker C:Look, if you're going to spend that sort of money on talking to people, maybe 10 dinners with 10 people a time who might have a vague interest in what you're doing, as opposed to thousands of people who walk past and are only talking to you to get a chance to win the free LEGO set.
Speaker C:There's some decision making there and I know which one I'd swing towards.
Speaker A:The LEGO set.
Speaker B:Yeah, always.
Speaker B:LEGO wins every time, right?
Speaker C:I have enough Lego.
Speaker C:I used to work for a company that gave you a substantial discount on lego.
Speaker A:My son would be, would love that.
Speaker A:I mean, you know guys, I mean it's, there's, there's many different routes down to this one and it's like, let's just talk about Infosec.
Speaker A:It was a definitely interesting.
Speaker A:I spoke to a number of the vendors and they said that footfall was down on the first day, they spend a lot of money on those kind of stalls, you know, it's pay to play there as well.
Speaker A:But they're reliant on the ven.
Speaker A:You know, the event organizers, to bring in the.
Speaker A:Bring in the people.
Speaker A:Now, Infosec is long established, you know, and I spoke to an organization who are well known for buying out the pub next door, who will remain nameless but will know exactly who I'm talking about.
Speaker A:And I had a chat with the person, one of the people in charge there, and he said, yeah, it's cheaper to do this and give people free beer than it is to get one of the bigger pitches in Infosec.
Speaker A:And they were rammed full.
Speaker A:They had hundreds of people there.
Speaker A:I mean, admittedly, free beer brings a lot of people there, but I must have spent an hour in the actual place before finding that all the fringe events was where everything was happening.
Speaker A:So we've already mentioned events, speakers.
Speaker A:What has your experience been with these events?
Speaker A:When they.
Speaker A:Do they.
Speaker A:Do they invite you along?
Speaker A:For those people out there that have obviously not had this experience, what tends to be the experience for some of the larger events versus some of the more smaller events, what tends to happen?
Speaker C:So there's very much a divide between them.
Speaker C:So the international events, I tend to get someone approaching me saying, here's our budget.
Speaker C:Does that fit with what you can do?
Speaker C:And can you speak on this topic?
Speaker A:That's brilliant.
Speaker C:I love that.
Speaker C:Keeps it nice and straightforward.
Speaker C:That's very much the international events.
Speaker C:Sometimes they say, what's the cost?
Speaker C:But they usually ask.
Speaker C:This is ignoring the events which are more on the.
Speaker C:Oh, we charge speakers to speak because those are.
Speaker C:They've taken leaves from academia that no one should.
Speaker C:The UK events, the approach is usually, do you want to speak at the event?
Speaker C:It may even be a CFP process.
Speaker C:Very rarely any discussion about finances or anything else, I suspect.
Speaker C:Well, I know some of the keynotes do get something, usually not as much as you would at, let's say, an event which does respect speakers.
Speaker C:Any of the others, you're either looking at someone who's speaking for free, out of passion and trying to give back to the community, or you're looking at someone who's being paid by their company to speak there and has paid to have that time on the stage.
Speaker C:And you can tell who those are because a lot of the time the audience are nodding off because it's a very obvious sales pitch.
Speaker C:It's horrendous.
Speaker C:It really is the quality of speakers.
Speaker C:There are some good ones at these events.
Speaker C:But I've just watched over the years, the overall quality and the value of the talks drop off a cliff.
Speaker B:Yeah, everything James just said, I agree with.
Speaker B:Next topic.
Speaker B:No, I mean, in reality, I think we need to.
Speaker B:Again, I try and keep things simple.
Speaker B:So I'm bracketing these areas, I think, for the larger events where they are charging people larger, large sums of money to go to these events, or large amounts of money for vendors to appear at these events, like Infosec Europe and others, you know, not just talking about the Infosec community here, because I've spoken at a variety of different trade shows and events.
Speaker B:I was talking yesterday that maybe the most obscure one was Care Homes, the Care Homes Expo.
Speaker B:And some of those, you know, they're charging 20, 30, 40, 80,000 pounds per exhibitor and then they come along and find speakers and don't pay them anything.
Speaker B:And I think that's.
Speaker B:I think that's wrong.
Speaker B:I think for smaller events, you know, B Sides is a great example.
Speaker B:We all know B Sides, but there are other, other events as well, real Cyber awards, seasides, you know, these are events which we're trying to keep vendor or sponsorship numbers, your cost low, so we're not charging them 10, 15, £20,000 at a time.
Speaker B:So we don't have a lot of a budget to be able to pay for speakers.
Speaker B:So we select, and I can only speak for me how I select the speakers, but we select speakers who have a good story to tell, who are passionate about something, as James just said, who are just starting out on the speaker circuit and just don't want to, you know, the fear of.
Speaker B:Here you are, guys, here's Wembley Arena.
Speaker B:Go and speak there.
Speaker B:It's like, no, let me cut my teeth on smaller event.
Speaker B:I want to learn the crack of speaking, which speaks very closely to what James just said.
Speaker B:There.
Speaker B:There is a skill to being a public speaker which many, many, many people seem to ignore or just don't possess and really shouldn't be on stage.
Speaker B:You know, it's like, again, don't put me on stage asking me to sing because I'm not a singer.
Speaker B:So why are we putting other people on stage and asking them to perform when they're not performers?
Speaker B:I don't present.
Speaker B:If you ask me to present, you might be asking me to present, but you better be sure you'll know you're going to get a performance.
Speaker B:I don't come and present stuff.
Speaker B:I am performing something and that's a difference.
Speaker B:So good speakers will always get paid.
Speaker B:I Think in some way, in some respects, larger events.
Speaker B:It shouldn't even be a question.
Speaker B:They should just go to the speakers and just go, right, this is going to be the value you're going to get from speaking on our stage and it shouldn't be.
Speaker B:It's going to get you good exposure.
Speaker B:That shouldn't be the only thing, not when you Pay charging people 10, 20, 30, £80,000 to actually be in the, in the room.
Speaker B:That's my view.
Speaker A:Yeah, I, you know, I find it really, really weird.
Speaker A:I've spoken to a lot of people through the podcast, you know, lots of kind of high end people who kind of like for instance, Jack Jones and you know, Jane Franklin and all the rest of it.
Speaker A:And you speak to these people who do a lot of events and some of them have said to me, you know, sometimes people will ask you to come to an event, they're not going to pay your travel, they're not going to pay your accommodation, they're not going to do anything at all to help you, but they ask you to come along to the event with this expectation that you will just for free.
Speaker A:Now that works for maybe, you know, if you're already going to the event or whatever and you're, you work for a vendor who's already there, I can understand it then.
Speaker A:But some of these people that I've spoken to, they don't just do circuits, they've got day jobs as well, but they are really high end and they get asked by all kinds of people and some of them have said you don't get paid as much as you would think.
Speaker A:And sometimes, you know, they'll pay for some of it, but they won't pay for all of it.
Speaker A:Like they'll say, oh, you know, we'll pay for your travel, but we're not gonna, we're not going to feed you, you know, you have to feed yourself and then you, you know, you come on, you can do your bit.
Speaker A:And it's about exposure, which works really well if you're not at the level of the career.
Speaker A:You know what I mean?
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:I mean, I'd be embarrassed to say, to turn around to someone like Jane and say, this is going to be good for your exposure.
Speaker B:It's like really?
Speaker B:And, and you know, and equally to, respectfully to any of us, you know, it's kind of.
Speaker B:Honestly, I don't need exposure at this point in my life.
Speaker B:I'm, I'm happy as I am and I get on lots of stages, so I get to practice and do different things.
Speaker B:And that genuinely isn't coming from a place of arrogance.
Speaker B:It's just kind of, if you're just starting out, then some of the organized event organizers can maybe play that card.
Speaker B:But when you've got a certain position and, you know, you publish books or you've got, you know, you're being asked to moderate events and such, you've got a podcast, successful podcast, just saying here's some exposure is really not going to cut it.
Speaker B:But I. I do want to just sort of clarify something as well here, that when we people and I get consultants and people come to me saying, gary, I want to be paid to be on stage.
Speaker B:Now, my view of this is that even if I'm not getting paid to be on stage, so, you know, an events organizer might come along and say, gary, it's just going to be good for exposure.
Speaker B:In my head, I might think, well, actually, as long as I have the opportunity to present what I do in a way that is compelling enough, I am going to be paid to be on stage.
Speaker B:Because if I've got a room of 100 people who are.
Speaker B:I spoke at Digital Construction Week.
Speaker B:If I can get 100 people in that audience, and if I can talk compelling and passionate enough about a particular topic that resonates with them, four or five of those people have already been in touch, you know, and it was only 24 hours ago.
Speaker B:The conference is still ongoing.
Speaker B:If four or five of those people contact me, that have contacted me, if one or two of them then convert into clients, then I have been paid to be on stage.
Speaker B:But I think there's a difference between being a professional speaker and just speaking at an event.
Speaker B:Because again, people say, I want to speak on stage.
Speaker B:And it's like, well, when do you think your process begins?
Speaker B:Because your process should be, what's the audience?
Speaker B:What is there?
Speaker B:What do you want the audience to go away with?
Speaker B:There's a whole piece around becoming a professional speaker, not just getting up on stage and doing a talk and regurgitating some facts and statistics.
Speaker B:So it just depends how professional you are.
Speaker B:It depends on how.
Speaker B:Whether Whether or not you get paid to be on stage or whether you get, you know, some value from being on that stage.
Speaker A:I guess no one ever pays me to go on stage.
Speaker A:I'm terrible on stage.
Speaker A:I'm good in front of the camera.
Speaker A:In front of the camera, there's no problems at all.
Speaker A:But you put me on the stage and you kind of look out and you see, like, the 75, 500, 2,000 people.
Speaker A:It scares.
Speaker A:It just scares the willies out of me.
Speaker A:I have done it, I have done it, but.
Speaker A:But in smaller groups.
Speaker A:But James, are you.
Speaker C:You've.
Speaker A:You've done a lot more, haven't you?
Speaker C:So next week, for example, I'm off to B sides Leeds to talk about something there.
Speaker C:So I do a lot of B sides, community events, hack Glasgow, possibly seasides.
Speaker C:We'll see what they say this year, things like that.
Speaker C:I probably do somewhere around 12 to 20 a year of those, which is.
Speaker C:Is quite a lot.
Speaker C:Those are all for free because I want to go to the conference and I actually want to contribute to the community.
Speaker C:And those are events where no one's making a profit.
Speaker C:And that's kind of a key thing to me.
Speaker C:In terms of the larger events, there's about three or four that I regularly go to, which are almost all.
Speaker C:Well, in fact, all international ones because they will pay travel expenses, accommodation, food.
Speaker C:I get an extra couple of days either side to explore and I get a speaking fee.
Speaker C:They're worth me doing anything in the UK that's.
Speaker C:That's never on offer.
Speaker C:And I think that's properly an industry issue, because I have been paid to speak at other industry events, just not security ones.
Speaker A:Is it because we're cheap in the uk?
Speaker C:I think it's because we came up from a very voluntary community culture.
Speaker C:We came up from Def con, B sides, things like that.
Speaker C:And it's affected people who have now had the practice and had the experience where they could and should be professional speakers, but they will go to these events and speak for free.
Speaker C:So we're never getting that uplift into actually having paid speakers at the events, which means gradually you get people filtering out, giving up on speaking, and we get that downward slide into, well, it's all going to be sponsored slots.
Speaker B:But I think there's a couple of things in there, isn't there, that we've talked previously and, and on here about the quality of events and such.
Speaker B:And you kind of go, well, no, but the events have got poor footfalls because the speakers aren't that great.
Speaker B:But then the speakers aren't being.
Speaker B:Who are of value like James, you know, aren't being paid to come and speak at these events.
Speaker B:They're, you know, the large events are same.
Speaker B:Simply saying, look, you know, it's a little bit like having a really fancy restaurant and then just gonna go, right, well, let's just go to, you know, a cheap corner shop to get some cheap curly sandwiches to give to people.
Speaker B:It's like, these are the Cheapest things we can get and we're just going to give that.
Speaker B:But it'll pass muster.
Speaker A:It'll.
Speaker B:It'll be fine.
Speaker B:People aren't coming here really for the speakers and it's like, well, actually they are.
Speaker B:So again, this is one of those problems that needs to be addressed at both ends a little bit.
Speaker B:As James said there, we've devalued ourselves because it's come up through this almost this voluntary world.
Speaker B:And events themselves are kind of saying, well, if people are willing to do it for and accept these speakers who are sub standard, then let's just keep churning that.
Speaker B:Let's just keep having the same speakers that, you know, people who haven't been tried and tested and such, because we haven't got a budget for that.
Speaker B:We just got a budget for to put a band on or to do or whatever companies need to.
Speaker B:I think these event organizers need to invest in their speakers and dare I say it, and it's been kind of talked about on this call that we ourselves need to start respecting our boundaries and being willing to say, no, thank you, but no, you're going to pay my expenses at the very least, pay my expenses, pay my travel.
Speaker B:Don't you want to, you know, you're asking me to travel from Yorkshire down to London to speak at your events and you're not going to pick up my train fee, you're not going to pick up my hotel fees.
Speaker B:It's like, at the very least, meet me halfway.
Speaker A:I guess if, you know, if you're going to speak at an event which is obviously very well funded by the vendors that are there, or by charging 50 quid or whatever, then your expectation is, yeah, you're going to get paid.
Speaker A:But I love the fact that both of you have said if it's something that you give back to the community on something small, you know, something where we're discussing things of importance with other CISOs or other security people or helping youngsters.
Speaker A:I mean, I, I've done well out of the sort of different here, but I've done guest lecturing, for instance, and I didn't charge for it.
Speaker A:I didn't expect anything.
Speaker A:I didn't even expect them to pay my travel because I thought to myself, well, I'm going to go and speak to a bunch of the next generation of infosec people and I can actually give back to the community.
Speaker A:You know, I love the fact that the infosec community, and you saw it when I was at Infosec, we're actually pretty good to One another.
Speaker A:You know, I've seen other industries where there's a lot of ego and a lot of people back, but we do have that.
Speaker A:I'm not saying that we're perfect, but we have a much more, much happier, seemingly industry where people are willing to come and help one another.
Speaker A:You know, where people are willing to go to sort of seaside or B site or whatever, you know, or small local events and talk about infosec and not charge for it.
Speaker A:But then you do get a few people.
Speaker A:I'm not going to say anything about who they are.
Speaker A:That seemingly it's gone to their head that they can charge and they charge exorbitant amounts.
Speaker A:And you go along and you hear them speak and you think, really?
Speaker B:Yeah, but I think, I think, I think you're right.
Speaker B:I mean, and all of us, I know, you know, James included, speak at events for free.
Speaker B:Because, you know, James, you just mentioned it, but, you know, speaking at schools, speaking at events for free.
Speaker B:Free because we believe in the, in the integrity and the cause, the importance of what that particular event, you know, B sides is always going to be the example, shining example.
Speaker B:And C sides, of course, those kinds of events, you kind of look at it and say, I can see what you're trying to do, so I'm going to support you on that.
Speaker B:But it is that the bigger events where you get these phone calls where they say, look, we'd like you to come and speak at this place.
Speaker B:And you go, oh, I've heard of that.
Speaker B:That's a really, you know, wow, that's a huge conference.
Speaker B:And you go, yeah, congratulations.
Speaker B:It's like being called up, you know.
Speaker B:You know, it's like a, you know, you've been called to the Palace.
Speaker B:Yep.
Speaker B:You're going to have an audience with a hundred thousand people and you go, wow, that's amazing.
Speaker B:And we're going to charge everyone in that auditorium 500 pounds to be in the room.
Speaker B:You're going to have an audience of 10,000 people, but we want you to do it for free.
Speaker B:And you go, hang on a minute.
Speaker B:That's a what?
Speaker B:And that's.
Speaker B:That's not on, I think.
Speaker B:And that's the bit where, respectfully, I, I would just go, yeah, no, thanks.
Speaker B:Thanks for the opportunity, but I'm gonna.
Speaker B:It's gonna be a hard pass unless you can at very least pay my expenses, cover my costs.
Speaker B:Then it's down to me to be an active delegate, to be professional, to work that room not in a salesy sleazy kind of way, but to be the best kind of speaker I can.
Speaker B:That those 10,000 people, 1,000 people, 100 people all sit there going, that's the guy who can help me solve a problem.
Speaker B:And that's.
Speaker B:Then that's down to you as a speaker.
Speaker B:That's down to you as a, as a performer to be able to do that.
Speaker B:So there is, there's a whole piece there that we have to do, we have to address, but bigger events need to start putting the hand in the pocket.
Speaker B:When all said and done, all of.
Speaker A:Our guests are by invite only.
Speaker A:You know, we.
Speaker A:I get hit quite a bit with the PR agents now, especially recently, you know, where they're all saying, oh, you know, you can have this guest and, and you can have them for free.
Speaker A:You know, I'm like, why?
Speaker A:I don't even know who these people are.
Speaker A:You know, I'm.
Speaker A:I'm supplying lots of add space really, in many respects, to a company that, you know, just thinks I'm gonna, gonna give it to them now.
Speaker A:I'd rather sit down and talk with you guys.
Speaker A:I'd rather sit down and talk with.
Speaker A:I mean, I interviewed an up and coming infosec professional and she said to me, she said, why are you interviewing me when you've interviewed all these other people?
Speaker A:I said, because I want to get perspective of what it's like coming up through the ranks now.
Speaker A:I know what it was like 30 years ago, but I think some of us who are a bit further along in our career need to see what it's like from your perspective because it's important.
Speaker A:Plus it gives you the exposure that you need in order to hopefully propel your own career.
Speaker A:Whereas I find events, as a general rule, I, I've just seen some speakers where they pull out the old set of slides and they're literally reading from the slides.
Speaker A:There's nothing behind the scenes.
Speaker A:And you almost feel embarrassed for, you know, for them poor sods, because they're never going to get invited again.
Speaker A:Gone.
Speaker A:James, you were gonna, you were gonna say something.
Speaker A:I saw you come off mute.
Speaker C:I mean, firstly, I'm going to say they do get invited again, because I've seen that and they get invited repeatedly.
Speaker C:But I think there is a fundamental problem in that.
Speaker C:In this industry, we don't really appreciate how much work goes into speaking, even if you're a new speaker.
Speaker C:I've mentored, I can't even count how many people for their first B side store can run workshops for first Lightning Talks, things like that.
Speaker C:The Lightning Talk ones.
Speaker C:That's a Five to ten minute talk.
Speaker C:And it's four hours of prep time for someone going for nothing.
Speaker C:And that's really quick.
Speaker C:People who are doing their first talk, their first solid talk, you're talking days, weeks of work going into it.
Speaker C:Even someone who's experienced at speaking.
Speaker C:This talk I'm doing for leads, that's probably about two days of work if I start adding it all up.
Speaker C:And that's going to be a half hour talk.
Speaker C:So there's this idea that people just get on stage and do half an hour, 20 minutes.
Speaker C:But there's a huge amount of work that goes into prepping the talk.
Speaker C:Then there's learning how to effectively deliver.
Speaker C:And that's a whole skill set in itself and that has to be developed by people.
Speaker C:There's learning not just to read the slides.
Speaker C:And oh, dear God, if I get one more person reading the slides, I'm going to, going to get banned from an event, I'm sure.
Speaker C:And the fact is, I am convinced anyone can learn to be a good speaker.
Speaker C:The skill set is learnable.
Speaker C:But I run a small publishing company.
Speaker C:I get quite a lot of manuscript submissions.
Speaker C:There's a saying that everyone has a book in them.
Speaker C:It's completely true.
Speaker C:I've seen some of those books.
Speaker C:They should stay inside.
Speaker C:Learn to do it well.
Speaker C:You can learn to do it well through something like a B side, through workshops.
Speaker C:There's all sorts of ways to do it.
Speaker C:But if you're going to go out there and really put it out, do put the work in, please.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker A:And there are some people with natural flair for it.
Speaker A:They can just get up, they can start talking, you know, I mean, I did one talk a couple of years back and literally the presentation failed on the third slide.
Speaker A:That was it.
Speaker A:It just stopped.
Speaker A:It froze.
Speaker A:And it was like, all right, so we're going to go free form then.
Speaker A:If I hadn't have been doing podcasting for a couple of years beforehand, I probably at that point would have frozen and shit myself.
Speaker A:But, you know, I just started carrying on, talking about the subject matter.
Speaker A:I went way off piste and you could see my, my dear old marketing director sitting there in the back getting various different shades of red and looking more horrified as I carried on.
Speaker A:But everyone seemed to enjoy it.
Speaker A:You know, if you can't get up and talk about a subject matter, then you know, maybe sort of going, going up and speaking isn't for you, but going back to it, you know, know your worth, you know, what are you there for?
Speaker A:If, if you're there to think that you can genuinely help people, then, yeah, go and do it.
Speaker A:You know, if you're already there anyway or you want to go anyway, just go and do it.
Speaker A:Okay, if you get paid, cool.
Speaker A:You know, if you don't, you don't.
Speaker A:But I think, you know, a lot of events need to stop utilizing how we can give you exposure and actually start paying their speakers quite well.
Speaker A:Because, I mean, other industries have massively paid speakers.
Speaker A:Our industry, by the sounds of it, doesn't.
Speaker A:Not that good, anyway.
Speaker B:Yeah, I would agree.
Speaker B:And I think.
Speaker B:I think James, James made the point earlier really, really well.
Speaker B:And I've said it several times.
Speaker B:There's a difference between speakers and then professional speakers.
Speaker B:And you have to learn the craft.
Speaker B:It is learnable.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker B:Some people don't enjoy it.
Speaker B:I know certain people who are highly technical, they would be amazing on stage, but they just have no desire to do, to be on stage, to go and, you know, it's glossophobia, I think, is the phrase, is the word for fear of public speaking.
Speaker B:And some people just don't like it for a multitude of reasons.
Speaker B:So that's fine.
Speaker B:They understand that some other people probably should not be on stage because they are terrible at it.
Speaker B:They're not professional, they haven't prepared.
Speaker B:One of the things I always say to any person when I'm training them about public speaking is you've got to remember that people are giving you their most valuable resource, which is time.
Speaker B:So give them the respect that it deserves and put in the time to prepare fully for that presentation and be professional about it.
Speaker B:Like James said, if you're only going to be standing there for 10 minutes, talking, actually talking for 10 minutes takes longer to prepare than if you're talking for an hour.
Speaker B:Because for an hour I can free flow and I can talk broadly about many topics.
Speaker B:If I'm only got 10 minutes, then I need to be really on point.
Speaker B:So you have to appreciate and respect that.
Speaker B:I think.
Speaker A:I totally agree.
Speaker A:And talking about on point, where can they find out about your awards ceremony?
Speaker B:Therealcyberawards.co.uk.
Speaker B:You can go and find out all about the awards there.
Speaker B:It has details.
Speaker B:Tickets for the conference itself.
Speaker B:Yeah, we're going to have speakers.
Speaker B:They'll be announced very, very soon.
Speaker B:And yeah, I'm looking forward to it.
Speaker B:It's going to be an exciting event.
Speaker A:I'm looking forward to it as well.
Speaker A:I'm hopefully going to be coming up for it.
Speaker A:I just got to check in and buy my ticket.
Speaker A:Thank you, guys.
Speaker A:Thank you.
Speaker A:Ever so much for coming.
Speaker A:To all of you out there, thank you ever so much for all the views.
Speaker A:It's been absolutely fantastic seeing us grow the way that we've grown.
Speaker A:We're looking to bring on more guests, talk about more important things around infosec.
Speaker A:Thank you to my guests as well.
Speaker A:I know they're very busy people and they've got a, they've got a dash.
Speaker A:So without further ado, you know, thank you very much.
Speaker A:Speak to you soon and look after yourselves.
Speaker A:In addition, I do have a book recently come out, the Cyber Sentinels Handbook, A primer for information security professionals.
Speaker A:Now this book is very much geared up towards professional professionals, all levels of their career, be they starters, be they newcomers, be they people have been in there for a little while and maybe looking for a little bit more direction, albeit the older ones looking to maybe reground themselves in some of the more important aspects of the trade that maybe they've forgotten over time.
Speaker A:I've had lots of good feedback from a lot of different readers at lots of different levels.
Speaker A:So please feel free to get yourselves a copy.
Speaker A:We've got the E copy, we've also got the paperback copy copy.
Speaker A:And if you don't want to spend any money, you can go on Kindle Unlimited and read the book for free there as well.
Speaker A:Thank you ever so much again, look after yourselves and we'll be seeing you again soon.
